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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
 Posted - May 28 2006 : 01:07:04 AM
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I'm a little apologetic about getting in something so basic  , but if I've to start from scratch, might as well as jump over this log, or remove it instead of being rooted on the spot, staring at it. I've read Yogani's explanation of the 'I AM' mantra. But some nigglings that're with me are:
a) how come I AM is male and female energies balanced, and 'so ham' isn't? (Sorry Yogani, this sounds like a doubting Tom, but I am actually trying to understand the mechanics of a mantra, and who and how anyone knows what it is all about)
b) most seed or 'beej' mantras are sounds that anyone can chant without having to cross the language barrier... but 'I AM'is definitely English, and I think some of its power comes from its meaning, or does it? So would it affect, say a Chinese or Malyali who knows no English in absolutely the same manner?
c)If Yogani were, say, from interior Germany knowing no English, would he still recommend 'I AM' as the mantra to begin with?
d)Are the beej mantras of yore prescribed in the yogic texts now redundant, or not as effective as 'I AM'; and why?
I've gotten into lots of trouble asking questions less 'questioning' than this... but because the AYP doesn't discourage the whys and hows of the tools, I dare ask this. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 05 2007 01:16:57 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 08:49:05 AM
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Hello Sadhak,
I asked about the same question here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1023
I still believe that "I AM" is different to saying "AYAM", even if I pronounce
it exactly the same.
Looking forward to other comments.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 10:00:07 AM
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The gist, and the most important part of the answer, is in the post Wolfgang has produced.
Here follows an analysis of the situation which can be ignored by all who don't care: words, phrases and mantras too can have dual or multiple etymologies. Most people tend to approach the origin and meanings of things as if things have only one origin or meaning. In practice, they can have more than one. (There are false etymologies too, which is something else.)
A very good example in English is the phrase 'parting shot'. It's etymology is dual: most originally, the phrase was 'Parthian shot', named after the Parthians who had a habit of turning back and shooting an arrow at you while they ran away. However, the phrase 'parting shot' is also influenced by the English verb, to part. The 'parting' in it comes both from 'Parthian' and the English word 'parting'.
IAM is best understood as a mantra, a sound, and that is the way it should be used in meditation. As I see it, Yogani is taking advantage of the fact that it it appears as a phrase in English which, coincidentally or by divine providence (take your pick) has a deep spiritual meaning. In this way, you can see it as having a kind of dual etymology. You can see this connection to the English phrase 'I AM' as a profound thing, or merely as a useful mnemonic -- again take your pick.
One thing is pretty clear, the meaning is not to be pondered during meditation.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 28 2006 10:05:32 AM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 10:16:32 AM
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| Perhaps there are words in languages other than Mother Sanskrit that have bija qualities and have a divine origin. |
Edited by - alan on May 28 2006 10:23:42 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 11:31:53 AM
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Hi Sadhak,
There is a lesson Mantra Design 101, where Yogani explains a lot about the mantras. I don't recommend it to beginners.. there is a reason it is lesson#188.. but you can read it and then make sure you forget about it.. don't hold on to it.. Also there is a lot of info in mantra enhancements.. not required yet.. but read it to get answers to your questions.. then just tuck it away somewhere in your head.. don't dwell on it..
http://www.aypsite.org/188.html
About what you said in the other thread about "I am not beginning from scratch only because it was drilled into me that once I move away from doing what I was, I am not only back to zero, but will make little progress the next time. "
I know where you are coming from.. there is a way that these things are drilled into our heads since we are kids in India..
All I can say is it is your nervous system.. you have to purify it.. this journey has to be traveled alone.. you have to make your decisions.. nobody else can make them for you.. if giving up a practice, that you don't enjoy means going back to zero.. I would take that chance.. although any book you read including the Gita.. it says.. what you achieve spiritually in this life time you will take with you to your next.. Gita Chapter 6 Verse 44: "By that very former practice he is borne on inspite of himself. Even he who merely wishes to know YOGA goes beyond the SABDABRAHMA"..
The statement that you cannot make progress the next time is absolute rubbish.. its your nervous system.. every person is wired towards enlightenment.. it is your true nature... no one can control that part of you... only you can purify and open your nervous system to accept the Divine grace.. no one else can do it for you. If you think staying with your current practice is going to do the job, really Sadhak stick to it... but don't do it out of fear.. because fear will only hold you back.. its just another thing you are adding to your nervous system that will have to go through the process of cleansing..
The Gita says Chapter 6 verse 5 "Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone, and let him not lower himself for, this Self alone if the friend of oneself, and this Self is the enemy of oneself".. Swami Chinmayananda's commentary on the Gita explains this as..
""Alone to the alone all alone" is the way. No Guru can take responsibility; no scripture can promise this redemption; no alter can, with its divine blessings, make the lower higher. The lower must be trained slowly and steadily to accept and come under the influence of the discipline of the higher. In the process, the teachers, the scriptures and the houses-of Gods, have their proper appointed duties and limited influences. But the actual happening depends on how far we ourselves learn to haul ourselves out from the gutters of misunderstanding in ourselves."
I wish you all the best in your chosen path. we are all here to help... I also know it will not be a easy decision for you.. it was not for me.. but today, I am glad I made it..  |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2006 : 12:44:07 PM
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Thanks David, Shanti...
I went through all that. Very instructive. Though I've already begun using the 'I Am' mantra... was quite significant; the couple of sessions I did with this method.
Alan, you're right, mantras can be from any language. I only wonder what makes a mantra a mantra. And what makes one more effective than the other. (Haven't yet read the mantra design lesson yet. Maybe the answer is there).
But really, thanks for the encouragement... I seem to be gathering the guts to jump into the pool, Shanti. |
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n/a
19 Posts |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 02:49:37 AM
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Dear Sadhak, While it is necessary to use ones discretion in spiritual matters, it is also important to trust the guru. If Yogani says that I AM is a good mantra we should be ready to believe it without doubting. Otherwise we should leave the guru and choose another.Why I am saying this is that on certain spiritual matters a guru may not be able to give a completely logical answer. I have tried the mantra and its good I have also tried the so ham and thats good too. But we have to stick to one mantra and one guru isnt it? This is purely my opinion and you are entitled to have your own. Love
mystiq |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 11:45:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sadhak
I only wonder what makes a mantra a mantra. And what makes one more effective than the other.
I've seen a variety of plausible but different opinions. On one hand, Anthony de Mello, in his book Sadhana relates that a Jesuit friend, experienced in meditation, experimented with simply repeating "one, two, three, four" and said it took him to a very deep place. A phrase without "meaning" and most likely without vibratory power worked. So one principle of meditation seems to be that focusing the attention on just one thought (almost any one thought) eventually draws energy from the multiplicity of thoughts generally bouncing around.
Another view is presented in one of my favorite books, Way of A Pilgrim, the anonymous account of a 19th century Russian with a profound spiritual life based simply on the constant repetition of the Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me"). All about meaning, and "the power of the Name."
My own view is that for any English speaker living in the west, unless they were raised by wolves, it's impossible to ignore the meaning of IAM. Spelling it AYAM is like putting on Groucho glasses - no one is really fooled. I don't find that a liability. It's no great effort to ignore the meaning during practice, but it was actually an inticement for me to get started, and something that held me during some early periods of doubt.
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Edited by - ranger on May 31 2006 11:47:26 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 1:03:55 PM
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As I see it there are three meditation effects related to mantra usage:
(i) various positive meditation effects are sound-independent, so using any sound can be helpful in some circumstances, hence even counting, or using 'one' can help;
(ii) various positive meditation effects are dependent on the sound 'vibration' and are completely independent of meaning;
(iii) various positive effects can come from meaning, ( in certain circumstances these can get in the way even if they seem positive).
so there are many different possibilities for mantra meditation.
In our AYP mantra meditation we exploit (i) and (ii). There may be a slight tangential exploitation of (iii) for those who are aware of the English-language meaning of 'I am' in the mantra.
Ranger said:
Another view is presented in one of my favorite books, Way of A Pilgrim, the anonymous account of a 19th century Russian with a profound spiritual life based simply on the constant repetition of the Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me"). All about meaning, and "the power of the Name."
This is a way of meditation or prayer which exploits (iii). Fine in itself for that person, but not the way we do AYP mantra meditation, though it has a lot in common with samyama. Some people at certain times can get great use of such religious things, but the effect is very person- and culture-dependent. The AYP samyamas are a little more general-purpose and less culture-dependent.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 31 2006 1:06:08 PM |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2006 : 8:26:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Some people at certain times can get great use of such religious things, but the effect is very person- and culture-dependent.
Nice summary of three aspects of mantra. Over a couple of years I did some digging into (iii), and came to the conclusion that repetition of some "meaningful" phrase that includes a name of God is probably the most widespread spiritual discipline in use worldwide now, and goes pretty far into the past. Makes sense since Bhakti is the most prevelant yoga, under whatever name. Just a couple of instances.
1) It's the oldest recorded Christian meditation practice, described in the 4th century Dialogs of John Cassian, who got it from the desert fathers who told him it was an ancient practice at that time. I have a hunch that its' referred to in the Old Testament as well. When you're looking, it crops up in places like the Psalms, where a phrase will be something like "My strength is in the name of the Lord" rather than simply "My strength is the Lord."
2) I come across a lot of Eastern teachers who advocate the practice as well. Even Ramana Maharsi:
quote:
When Sri Ramana Maharshi talked about this advanced stage of Japa there was an almost mystical dimension to his ideas. He would speak of the identity of the name of God with the Self and sometimes he would even say that when the Self is realised the name of God reappears itself effortlessly and continuously in the Heart.
http://www.hinduism.co.za/japa.htm
3) The final thing is, in my own experience, it's very powerful. I have a bias perhaps, because it's something I've always been drawn to, one of those "authentic" predelictions I guess, because I've long found myself doing it without being told. Like the rosary prayers. I've loved them for decades, even though I've never been in a church, eastern or western that didn't frown on them, at least a little bit.
Anyway, of course (iii) doesn't fit into the AYP practice itself, but what the heck, we gotta get through the other 23 hours somehow  . And I do think it's not correct to call repetition of the Name (Namo Japa) very person or culture specific, I think it's a wider practice than that.
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 03:22:28 AM
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Mystiq,
quote:
it is also important to trust the guru. If Yogani says that I AM is a good mantra we should be ready to believe it without doubting. Otherwise we should leave the guru and choose another.
Wanting to know more, as I am quite tired of pointing out to people, is not necessarily mistrust (though, yes, I agree, it can be)... it is just trying to understand or know the mechanics of. Fine, it might be an intellectual act...but then, so is even this entire forum. And if I am right now based in the intellect, it is far better to be what I am, rather than pretending to be drowning in bhakti, and getting nowhere. In fact, bhakti yoga is supposed to be the most difficult of all kinds because it requires 100% surrender. And I am here precisely because Yogani does not come across as the towering almighty "GURU", who goes... "do what I say without questions, or else get your backside out of here". I am here because I am free to ask, and free to be what I am, and still pursue the path of yoga. Please do refer to:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1125
http://www.aypsite.org/72.html
David, Ranger, what you say is mighty interesting. Could it be David, that of the classifications you've made, certain 'types' of people move easier with one kind of mantra or the other. Since each of us is completely unique, and have different needs?
quote:
As I see it there are three meditation effects related to mantra usage:
(i) various positive meditation effects are sound-independent, so using any sound can be helpful in some circumstances, hence even counting, or using 'one' can help;
(ii) various positive meditation effects are dependent on the sound 'vibration' and are completely independent of meaning;
(iii) various positive effects can come from meaning, ( in certain circumstances these can get in the way even if they seem positive).
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Edited by - sadhak on Jun 01 2006 07:18:00 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 4:59:18 PM
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quote:
Anyway, of course (iii) doesn't fit into the AYP practice itself, but what the heck, we gotta get through the other 23 hours somehow . And I do think it's not correct to call repetition of the Name (Namo Japa) very person or culture specific, I think it's a wider practice than that.
Hi Ranger,
There was some discussions on this here
and these are my thoughts on it..
quote:
The problem with repeating a mantra all the time and not just during meditation is..(as Yogani points out in his Deep Meditation book).. it becomes a "mantra habit"... and the thoughts think it if fine to be there along with the mantra during meditation... It took me the longest to get over this habit.. Unlearing somthing that was a part of me for a long time was not easy... So if you have not started it.. maybe you would want to stay away from it.
I am not saying it is a problem with everyone.. so if it works for you.. you don't have to stop it..
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Edited by - Shanti on Jun 01 2006 5:12:52 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 5:57:47 PM
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| Lots of smart comments. Now one dumb but useful one. I used to not love the idea of this mantra, because it sounded too egoistic ("I am!"), even if Maharshi did recommend it. But what I very soon discovered is something every 4 year old knows: if you say a word (or short phrase) a lot, it very quickly turns into nonsense and loses all its meaning. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 01 2006 10:38:49 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 6:31:54 PM
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Sadhak siad:
David, Ranger, what you say is mighty interesting. Could it be David, that of the classifications you've made, certain 'types' of people move easier with one kind of mantra or the other. Since each of us is completely unique, and have different needs?
Yes, Sadhak, I think we are all different and have different needs. In fact, it goes even further than that -- I think we each can have different needs at different points in our lives.
How to tell what is best for each person? Maybe a long time into the future, when all this becomes more of a science, they'll have ways to tell such things -- maybe some psychological tests, and even genetic tests and so on might be used to predict what will be most helpful for each person.
In the meantime, the science is rough. But we have self-pacing, and a certain small set of techniques that are known to be powerful in a lot of cases.
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 9:53:51 PM
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Hi all,
I've enjoyed this thread.
I'm toying with two variations on "I AM:" "AM I," as in "Why am I here?" And "I'M" as in "I'm one of them." When I accent the A sound, I'm more in the AM I mode, and when I almost leave it out, it is more I'M.
Also, we talk about "saying a mantra," but doing it silently. And responding to the vibration. But if we are listening to the vibration, I've been tending to "hear the mantra" rather than "say" it. The accent is on the sense of hearing rather than the sense of saying. Both can be silent. I also like playing with doing it out loud when I'm alone.
You?
B |
Edited by - bewell on Jun 01 2006 10:38:17 PM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2006 : 10:53:05 PM
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| I think properly accentuating the "a" as in "I am" or "ayam" is important in that it stimulates the heart center. |
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ranger
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2006 : 02:26:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
I'm toying with two variations on "I AM:" "AM I," as in "Why am I here?" And "I'M" as in "I'm one of them." When I accent the A sound, I'm more in the AM I mode, and when I almost leave it out, it is more I'M.
The way I pronounce "I'm," as one syllable, it becomes the bija mantra for Saraswati, which is great if that's what you intend, (kind of the Hindu muse and a lot more), but it isn't the dual pole mantra that IAM is intended to be. One indicator (at least for me) is that Saraswati's energy is concentrated at the throat center. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2006 : 10:05:13 AM
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| For some reason sometimes I catch myself pronouncing the 4 different sounds separately like I E A M |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2006 : 10:26:45 AM
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| So many variations in three sounds. Or rather, four, going by Lili. Maybe each one puts emphasis in a way that vibrates with them in a way they need it at that point. And as Bewell points out, it can turn into a question for some for a while. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2006 : 10:51:05 AM
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Thanks, all of you who replied to my comments. Given the high quality of your response, I'd like to share some more about my situation regarding the ecstatic reconance of these words.
My case is particular. I heard the words spoken during a dream. In the dream, they came from an invisible source in the early morning sky. The deeply resonate voice spoke these words:
"Why am I in this place, at this time? Unless, I'm one of them!"
My response to the voice included a strong response in my physical heart at first (during "WHY AM"). The voice was other and yet I felt a strong identity with the voice. I wanted to serve, to help. The word that had the most punch was "them." The meaning of "them" was ambiguous, and so bypassed (and still bypasses) my rational understanding. It awoke me from the dream feeling an intense awareness of my mortality, my flesh. I was unable to breathe. And moments later I was in ecstasy.
I feel what you fellow seekers have said about I'M and I AM. I'm curious about your response to "THEM." It still carries a punch of inner conductivity for me. It carries a feeling of being mortal and awaiting transformation. You? |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2006 : 3:52:34 PM
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To think... I AM not this... THAT I AM THAT |
Edited by - alan on Jun 03 2006 10:42:08 PM |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2006 : 7:36:32 PM
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Hi bewell
That above is essentially what came up when reflecting on your post.
Would THAT be interchangable with THEM? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2006 : 8:30:16 PM
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Here's a sentence for you, Alan:
I thought that that 'THAT' that that forumite used was confusing.
:) |
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alan
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2006 : 10:32:00 PM
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Confuscious say what?!!!
(Okay, I trimmed THAT down for you) |
Edited by - alan on Jun 03 2006 10:40:59 PM |
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